EPISODE 1

Is reaaallly expensive coffee a rip off?

Shownotes

Would you ever pay £75 for 100g of coffee beans?

Scott and Jools travel to Panama and Bali to decide whether it's all a big marketing scam.

Panamanian Geisha coffee regularly breaks auction records, with coffee recently selling for over $1000 per pound.

We hop on the line with Rachel Peterson, co-owner of the famous Hacienda La Esmeralda Estate to discover what Geisha coffee is, where it came from and why people are now saying it will soon reach $10,000 per pound!

Kopi Luwak are the coffee beans that are eaten and then pooped out by adorable Indonesian civet cats.

We get the lowdown on this novelty coffee from Janice Girardi, founder of the Bali Animal Welfare Association.

Be warned: the truth is shocking.

You can support the show by supporting our wonderful sponsors!
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What's the most you've ever paid for a coffee? Tell us on Instagram!
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Donate to the Bali Animal Welfare Association: http://bit.ly/2MiHbKh
Explore Panamanian Geisha at Hacienda La Esmeralda: https://bit.ly/368C3iL
Adventures in Coffee: Episode 1.

Transcript
Scott Bentley: Welcome to adventures in coffee, a podcast by caffeine magazine
Jools Walker: In this six episode series, Scott and I are exploring the world ofcoffee for people who are curious about what's in their daily cup.
Scott Bentley: Because I think we're all becoming much more interested where ourfood and drink comes from. Um, we decided to make this podcast to demystifysome of those things and really still try and keep it fun.
Jools Walker: So we're going to take you on a journey around the world. We'llspeak to experts and answer the questions you've always wanted to ask aboutyour cup of coffee.
Scott Bentley: Uh, my name is Scott. I am the founder of caffeine magazine and youknow what? I'm a bit of a coffee nerd
Jools Walker: And I'm Jools Walker, a very proud East Londoner, a cycling advocateand cycling Maven and your everyday coffee lover.
Scott Bentley: Now, in this episode, we're going to talk about really, I mean like reallyexpensive coffee.
Jools Walker: Actually Scott, how much have you spent? What what's the most you'vespent on a coffee before.
Scott Bentley: I'll be honest with you. I don't really buy coffee or get most of itsent to me,
Jools Walker: oh look at you
Scott Bentley: I think the most I've ever spent, it's like 25 pounds for a bag ofcoffee, but we're talking more than this aren't we we're doing like threetime's up.
Jools Walker: We're talking like 75 pounds for a hundred grams and you know, it'sa lot of money and we need to ask the question. Is it actually worth it? Or is this all just a massive marketing scam?
Scott Bentley: I mean, the idea for this episode started Jules. When I believe yougave me a call, uh, why don't you take us back to that question?
Jools Walker: Well, I came to you Scott, because you're the King of caffeine and Iknew that you would be able to help me out on this. I was on the hunt for ananniversary present for my partner, Ian. So, you know, we've been together forquite some time and he loves coffee. I love coffee win-win situation. I thoughtto myself, let's just get some, you know, top end coffee.So I'd found two, the two coffees, whichwas the geisha and the kopi Luwak. But I was looking at paying 75 pounds foreither one of them.
Scott Bentley: Wow.
Jools Walker: Hmm.
Scott Bentley: That's a lot of money Jools!
Jools Walker: It's a lot of money, but it's a lot of love, Scott.
Scott Bentley: Do you think that's why I've been divorced three times? I haven'treally been divorced at all
Jools Walker: Yet
Jools Walker: All right, let's go. How about you quickly explain what geisha coffee is and what kopi Luwak coffee is.
Scott Bentley: Okay.  So, now you might've heard a civet or kopi Luwak as It's also known it's been films likethe bucket list. It's the kind of coffee that always comes up on those buzzfeed things. So six best coffees in the world, and they're always rubbish.That’s my opinion. Anyway, um, It's effectively where these lovely little fairy weasel cats chomp on some coffee berries and they poop it out and someone comes along, scoops it up and sells itto you. So, yeah, it's coffee that's come out of a cat's bum. Um, but the otherone that we're going to talk about is geisha coffee.Now If you're from my part of the industry, geisha coffee, is this, it's this coffee that is revered. I mean, this is likegetting smashed in the face with a bouquet of flowers while simultaneously stuffing your face within a Mango salad. Yes.
Jools Walker: It's quite the image.
Scott Bentley: It’s quite the experience.
Scott Bentley: Okay Jools, let's leave Kopi Luwak to one side for the moment. BecauseI've got a lot of say on that, but, and this just focused on the geisha. Andyes, geisha does cost them a lot of money. I mean, recently a pound of geishafetched over a thousand dollars at auction. So I, so I understand that this stuffcan be super expensive, but I also don't think it costs that much more thanyour average coffee to produce.
Jools Walker: And I argued that marketing hype does actually serve a purpose. Youknow, there are people out there who wants to pay good money for special thingsfor a special occasion. Scott Bentley: Yeah. This is a special thing. Yeah. But you can get other specialflavors. If you want that bouquet of flowers, then go for an amazing Ethiopian.You don't have to spend 75 pounds for a tiny bag.
Jools Walker: Right. And this is what this conversation took us on this whole journey because we both ended up agreeing that if we are going to be convincedby anyone that geisha coffee is actually worth that money, the person that weneed to talk to is going to be Rachel Peterson.So she's the co-owner of La Esmeralda,which is the coffee farm that brought geisha to the world stage 20 years ago.
Scott Bentley: But before we get into all of this, this just a couple of quickwords from our sponsors.

[Sponsor music starts]

Jools Walker: Have you heard of the term“farm gate “ price before?
Scott Bentley: It’s the price that afarmer is paid as the coffee leaves his gate. I mean, it’s literally the cashthat’s in his hand as they take those bags of coffee away.
Jools Walker: So, why does it matter if wedon’t know what the farmer gets paid?
Scott Bentley: Well Iguess the worst case scenario is that the producer gets totally stiffed. It could be asituation where they get paid less than the cost of producing that coffee.
Jools Walker: That feels kind of crappy. Because we’ve paid top dollar for our really nice cappuccino and it turns outthe middlemen have taken all the money.
Scott Bentley: I mean thisis the wonderful thing about iFinca technology. It verifies what the farmer got paid and youcan see all of this data.  
Jools Walker: So, if you want truly transparent coffee, ask your roaster to get their coffee iFinca verified.  

[Sponsor music ends]

Rachel Peterson:
Hello? This is Rachel.
Jools Walker: Hi, Rachel. It's Jools calling from the caffeine podcast.
Rachel Peterson: Oh, hi, Jools. How are you?
Jools Walker: I'm good. How are you doing?
Rachel Peterson: I'm doing fine. Thank you. Hi Scott
Scott Bentley: Hey Rachel, it's lovely to hear from you.
Rachel Peterson: Great to hear from you too.
Jools Walker: So, Rachel, as I explained in my email, I found myself in a bit ofan anniversary dilemma.I rang Scott and it then turned into aconversation about. Is very, very expensive coffee actually worth it. And I'mof the thought that it is, Scott's thinking not so much.
Scott Bentley: Thanks. Thanks for throwing me under the bus there.
Jools Walker: You see, I just, I set that up immediately. So I'm already in thewinning corner. This Rachel, this
Scott Bentley: You’re already the nice guy, and I'malready the bad, You’re already the good cop and I'm already bad cop. I lovethis already.
Jools Walker: I was wondering if you maybe could tell us a bit about what. Geishacoffee actually is.
Rachel Peterson: Yes, absolutely. Um, so geisha coffee is a variety that originallycame out of Ethiopia in 1930s. Uh, went through Kenya, went through Tanzaniathrough some, uh, varietal gardens there and arrived in Costa Rica, in the fifties, it was planted throughout Panama in the late sixties, early seventies. But it turned out that it was a very low producing variety. So most of these farmers cut out this new variety and they didn't continue with it. And we purchased a farm in the late nineties that was an abandoned coffee farm.And on the bottom of that coffee farm werea variety of different trees, so back in the seventies, people didn't taste coffee here in Panama. They might have somewhere in the United States or in Europe, but here in Panama we produced coffee, we looked at it, we made sure itdidn't smell like vinegar or rotten or anything like that, and that was that. And so my brother had just gotten back fromcollege, he has that same coffee again, and he presents it to Rick Reinhardt who was here in Panama. Rick Reinhardt for people who don't know is used to bethe executive director of the specialty coffee association. And my brother gave him this coffee and he said, yeah, definitely put that coffee into the best of Panama, which is a competition that we have here in Panama to choose the bestcoffees every year.So in 2004, my brother put it into the bestof Panama and it was loved overwhelmingly by all of the judges and byeverybody. And it was quickly accepted here in Panama as a wonderful variety. When you smell it, after it's roasted and ground, you're going to find justthis wonderful, very strong smell of Jasmine, but you're also going to findpeaches or stone, any type of stone fruit.So the identifying words are going todepend on what part of the world you live in. So in Asia they always say litchee,it has a lot of Litchee in it all in all. It's a very fragrant sweet when it's done well. Very structured, but complex has to have layers to it.
Jools Walker: I feel like I can taste this coffee already, just having thisconversation. So you were saying how this geisha bleweveryone away when they taste it at this auction. What happened afterwards?
Rachel Peterson: We were hoping for $6 a pound, which we thought was a great price inthat time. Because at that time, the coffee price was actually not even a dollar maybe, and the auction started and the prices just jumped immediately to $10 apound, which back in 2004 was a huge amount of money by the way.And so the guy in charge of the auction, hesaid, I've got a hacker, we've got to stop this. So he stopped the auction.Called up the people and the people are like, no, no, no, we really want to dothis. And the coffee went up to $21 a pound that year. And it was the recordbreaking year. I mean, we've had other records, like $600 a pound, which don'tcompare even at all to that first year of $21 a pound where roasters all overthe world were horrified.It was unbelievable. That was, nobody couldbelieve it. And after that it was easy. There was a buzz all over the world. Everybody was talking about it. So it sort of had a life of its own. It justtook off. So anyway, when you were asking their Jools about geisha coffee, Forme, is it worth it? I drink geisha coffee every day and I definitely think geisha is worth it. But if you you're going to spend money andyou're worried about the money you're going to spend, there's two things that Iwould say, one makes sure that that geisha is coming from somewhere that youknow, it's coming from and that's at a reputable source. And two, really really makes sure that that roaster knows what they're doing because a badly roastedgeisha is just not even as good as any other coffee.You, you burn it a little bit and it'sdone, it's delicate and it needs to be treated with a lot of love.
Scott Bentley: One of the things I was really interested that you were saying, as you’redescribing this coffee, it sounded more like a perfume. These are just flavors,which for a lot of people don't exist in coffee.Rachel Peterson: So, this is never going to be for anybody. Who's going to ever addanything to the coffee. If you're going to add anything to it at all, just buyanything except for Geisha.
Scott Bentley: So no milk and sugar then
Rachel Peterson: Terrible, bad.
Scott Bentley: Could I also ask? Obviously you've got a lot of people that work foryou on your farm. Have any of them tasted
Rachel Peterson: well, for one thing, I have a small team of people who are going tocup with me because I needed them to have an idea what this tastes like, but Ican tell you one thing, they don't like it. It's not for everybody. That's afact, if you
Scott Bentley: Right
Rachel Peterson: Especially somebody like who just likes that really strong bitter smell,but like the really strong, I should say roasty smell of coffee.I'm not reallysure how to describe it.
Scott Bentley: Burnt
RachelPeterson:  It's not going to be for you if that's what you're looking for.
Scott Bentley: Hmm, Rachel, can I ask previously in our discussion, we talked about how the coffee has a rarity value and it has a number of reasons which kind ofpush the, the price up, but can you talk to me about, does it cost a lot moreto produce, I mean, is it costing you a thousand times more to produce than itwould sort of like a Bourbon or Caturra or some, some other kind of coffeevarietals.
Rachel Peterson: Hmm, not a thousand times to produce at the very least double toproduce it though. However, for example, here in Panama, our costs ofproduction are much higher than in any of the neighboring countries.So I sell our most accessible coffee. Wesell that for 3.50 a pound. It costs us more than that to produce it.
Jools Walker: I just wanted to, to touch upon why it's important to have very highpriced coffee on the market, because I don't know if it changes theexpectations of what we should be paying for our coffee.
Rachel Peterson: Listen, I'm going to tell you that I think it's important becausethose high prices on coffee make it so that people are willing to pay areasonable price on coffee for other coffees, which didn't use to happen before the geisha. We want to raise the quality of life of coffee farmers across theboarder, or at least that's what we say as an industry, especially for thesmall coffee farmers, but there's this resistance to pay more than a dollar 90to these small farmers who have a decent coffee, but that's not going to cutthat. They're not, they're not going to get a good living like that. We knowthey're not going to, it makes it so that a roaster coming here and saying,I'll pay you $3. A pound is no longer absurd. When I, to 15 years ago, I had tofight between 1.40 and 1.42 a pound.I mean, and we were losing money back then.We were in the red, so things have changed. And it's not only because we're Esmeralda
Jools Walker: To me and excuse the pun here, but it filters down to the rest ofthe coffee industry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But it's the perfect, perfect pun. It'strue because it feels like a sort of win-win conversation to have somethinglike that available on the market.
Scott Bentley: So here's an interesting thought experiment. What's the ceiling ongeisha coffee auction, what, which thinks the highest we'll ever get to here.
Rachel Peterson: I think it's kind of crazy. The whole thing is kind of crazy
Scott Bentley: How much would Jools have to pay for your coffee in 10 years' time?
Rachel Peterson: You know, I don't know. I hear I've heard rumors here and thereabout $10,000 here and $10,000 there.
Scott Bentley: Wow.
Rachel Peterson: I. I, I don't know what to say about that, because really we allreally know that those are just marketing gimmicks, but I mean, it's not likethe 10 grams of any coffee are going to be worth a thousand dollars. It's it'sit's marketing. We can agree on that. Right. I mean, I feel bad saying itmyself, the coffee is great, but I guess marketing, it's the same thingprobably with these very expensive wines.It's the scarcity. It's the uniquenessagain, it's having not a lot of it that makes it have these prices that are notnecessarily a reflection of what you're getting.
Jools Walker: But I now have to ask because of the fact that, that Scott put that coffee bean of an idea in my brain about the price of it.
Scott Bentley: You went there again Jools, how many times I would say, don't dothis, don't do the gags. I do the gags.
Jools Walker: I think to myself, maybe, maybe it has to be a damn specialanniversary as the years go on, but should I be buying this coffee now, beforeit gets too expensive? Or do I need to actually just increase my income by 10fold to be able to afford it? In the future
Scott Bentley: Just buy lots of it and put it in the freezer
Jools Walker: is that you have the right thing to do exactly. Exactly.
Rachel Peterson: I don’t think It's going to be,they're all going to be a thousand dollars a pound. I mean, I think you'regoing to be able to easily find something for, I don't know, $40 a poundtowards the future. I think you're safe, I think you're safe.So take care guys then, and I guess I'llsign off now and we'll talk later at some point
Jools Walker: Awesome, take care Racherl
Scott Bentley: Lovely. Thanks again for your time, Rachel
Jools Walker: bye-bye
Scott Bentley: I mean, I don't know how you felt Jools after having thatconversation with Rachel, but I was really impressed with just how candid shewas.
Jools Walker: There was no filter to what she was talking about.
Scott Bentley: Umm
Jools Walker: She, wasn't trying to rum 75 pounds of bad coffee down my throat andtelling me that's the thing that I should go for. And she was honest enough to just say the taste of it isn't for everybody.
Scott Bentley: . Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, I also think that was interesting isthat she was mentioning the fact that, like you say, this isn't for everyoneand there are great coffees, which can be also bought for much, much less. Andin some ways she was even like selling you the idea of paying much less
Jools Walker: I appreciated that I really did. And you know, it then pretty muchled to me ditching the idea of spending 75 pounds. However. Our investigation into whichcoffee, you know, is, is worth it wasn't quite over yet. Cause I was stilltoying with the idea of the civet cat coffee as well.
Scott Bentley: Ugh Jools. When will youlisten to me?
Jools Walker: This is why we are here my friend
Scott Bentley: I know, I know this idea that these cats are walking around, youknow, they're picking up coffee cherries off of the floor that eating them andpooping out, uh, these coffee beans. They just happen to be found by someunsuspecting farmer who picks them up and processes them.But the reality of this well, the realitythat I was aware of was very much that these cats were being captured. Therewere being put in cages, they were being forced fed these beings. And, youknow, these were then being kind of sold onto your unsuspecting tourists assort of like, Hey, this is a local thing, it's a local delicacy. It's likereally wild coffee. And it's just not, it's just, you know, it's a trade.
Jools Walker: But on the flip side of that, I, I found websites that told me that thereare civet cats out there that are roaming free. So they're, they're notencaged. They're not captured, they're not being forced fed the beans that, youknow, they're essentially free range cats.
Scott Bentley: Yeah.
Jools Walker:
They, they exist.
Scott Bentley: I mean, I mean, good point because I mean, I didn't actually know. Imean, I, I am aware of speciality coffee, people in the UK who have, you know,a very high presence as it were, who. Also say that they have ethically sourcedcivet cat coffee. So I didn't know. I mean, I had bias opinions and I feel thebest thing for us to do really was to, you know, arrange that call with JaniceGerardi from the barley animal welfare association and ask her, you know, what,what's the real story with these cats?
Jools Walker: Okay. But before we get onto that, let's hear a quick word from oursponsors.

[Sponsor music starts]

Scott Bentley: Okay. Here's something interesting. Richard Öste founded Oatley inSweden in 1994, based on his research on lactose intolerance at Lunduniversity. What else do you know that comes from Sweden? Meatballs, probablynot the best, probably inappropriate. Saabs?
Jools Walker: Steady trusty, reliable.
Scott Bentley: Cars also kills the planet. Anything else that doesn't kill the planet? There's actually coming from Sweden.
Jools Walker: Oh, Rika Johnson
Scott Bentley: obviously, Abba. Spotify is from Sweden,
Jools Walker: Yes, of course, where you can listen to adventures in coffee, man.
Scott Bentley: That's slick. OA T L Y exclamation mark. Oatly!  

[Sponsor music ends]

Janice Girardi: Hello, this is Janice from BAWA. How can I help you?
Scott Bentley: Oh, hello, Janice. Uh, my name is Scott Bentley. I'm calling from Caffeine. I've also got my good friend Jools on the line as well.
Janice Girardi: Hi Jools, hi Scott!
Scott Bentley: Yeah, so we questions, uh, regarding some like expensive coffees andone of the expensive coffees that we hear so much about here is this a is kopiLuwak, and I understand that you've got, uh, quite an in-depth knowledge ofthis subject.
Janice Girardi: hmm sure. I first came to Bali in 1973 and I've been involved inanimal welfare issues in Bali for decades and kopi Luwak is one of the issues that we investigate because of the cruelty to the animals.
Scott Bentley: So maybe I hand over to you Jools, maybe you can talk about how,what you're looking for here.
Jools Walker: Yes. I'm looking to get some, some very nice and sort of once in alifetime coffee for mine and my partner Ian's anniversary. What I found out orwhat I saw was that it's foraged wild so that the animals aren't treated cruelly,you know, it's a completely natural process. The rarity of it is the thing thatmakes it so exclusive and so special and therefore so expensive.I'm still of the hope that there is a waythat this can be done quickly. Like there must be somebody out there that'sdoing it ethically. Surely.
Janice Girardi: Interesting if you want a little bit of history going back to Dutcha hundred years ago, perhaps the origin of kopi Luwak was that the farmers whowork for the judge were not allowed to take the coffee beans from the trees.So civet cats are Indonesian called Luwaks.Their natural behavior, they're nocturnal animals. So they hide and sleep inthe daytime in trees. They come out in the nighttime, they're very shy animalsand civet cats would find the coffee cherries that drop naturally from thetrees. They are very selective, they choose the best quality ones, in the wildagain, and then they eat the coffee cherries. It stays in their digestivesystem for 24 hours, and then partially undigested beans are defecated by thecivet cats, farmers, they discovered wild Luwak beans that had been defecatedand they were collecting it and they started grinding it.And there's like this special fermentationprocess inside the cats that is believed to be a richer taste. And that waskind of the origin of Luwak coffees. So it definitely came from the wild andcan come from the wild, but it takes so many, it takes so much. So what they dois once the civet, defecates these partially digested beans out, they have tocollect it and then they clean it, and then they're able to get just a littlebit of it that they grind into coffee. So if you can find it in the wild,imagine how much you would have to forage on river valleys and under trees tofind enough of these cherries and partially digested cherries in order to evenmake your hundred grams of coffee, it takes really a lot. Now I'm Bali animal welfare associations, sowe're talking about. Bali and we've investigated quite a few of the so-called wild Luwak plantations. There is only one that we have found that they do not cage their animals, they allow them to roam free, but they're still within alarge, chained off area, land is quite expensive in Bali. I mean, I guess it'syour definition of wild and natural because honestly the civit cats are stillconfined. So any confined animals is really for the most part against animalwelfare principles. The other thing that's really interesting is I don't evenknow how you would assure that it was pure because we talked to a neighbor downthe street who had a kopi Luwak café, and he said that he, and most of all ofthe other cafes he knows import the coffee and they import it from Sumatra orfrom Java. They know that it's only 20% genuine Luwak and the rest of it ismixed with often quite bad local coffee. So to ensure that you would be buyinggenuine, pure Luwak coffee, and that was not cruel to the animal.Honestly, maybe you'd have to come to Balionly on your honeymoon. And I could take you out to river valleys and we couldgo search it. It might come out cheaper than a hundred grams. I don't know howto answer that. I mean, I feel for you and I understand it would be somethingreally interesting and unique to have, but the animals that we have seen herein Bali are still confined.And these animals are kept in very small cagesfor life. They're let out only if the cage absolutely needs to be cleaned. Weget calls all the time that, you know, tourists call and say, we thought wewere at this visiting, this Luwak out plantation and three of the animals arereally, really sick and their skin is peeling off and you'd have to come and dosomething.So we'll go, of course, and we'll negotiatewith the owners and we'll usually be given the animals, we'll get them into vetclinics and get them treated, negotiating that we can release them in the wild,but you know what, the next day or next week, they're just captured again, backinto captivity.
Scott Bentley: Janice, what, in your opinion, do you think is fueling this? Do youkind of trace it back to a specific time from a specific place?
Janice Girardi: Yeah, I would say Bali would be the heart of it and it was driven bytourism.
Scott Bentley: Right
Janice Girardi: And for the most part that's within the last two decades. I, I mean,when I first came to Bali in 1973, I'm old, there was no kopi Luwak, you'dnever heard of kopi Luwak, and so it only takes one person to invent a noveltyand be able to market it well, and then the next person copies it and the nextperson copies it. North of where I live, there's 50, 60, 70 Luwak cafes. Honestly, the only good thing about COVID this year is that all the, most of the Luwak, you know, the tourism has closed down and so most of them are nowclosed.
Scott Bentley: I suppose, the fact that there's been a, a Hollywood film, probablynot help the situation either.
Jools Walker: Yeah, this is what I was going to say as well. Cause I gotcompletely sucked in by it because even the scenes in the film work werebeautiful, like that, the beautiful golden siphon, you know, it just kind ofproves that marketing is a very strong and potent drug.
Janice Girardi: Absolutely Jools, and also, I think that it's marketed as the mostexpensive coffee in the world, perhaps? Or one of the most expensive coffees.And people always want that, you know, the glamour, the story to take home, Iwas in Bali and I had a cup of the most expensive coffee in the world, and it'srare, etcetera, etcetera, that it is all hype, and it's so sad because theseanimals are truly suffering.
Scott Bentley: Janice, I'm sure I probably know the answer to this question, butI'm going to ask it anyway. You actually tasted pure kopi Luwak yourself?
Janice Girardi: No, nor would I, because that would be really breaking animalwelfare principle, but I live in the heart of Ubud and I meet many, manytourists who have tried it with very varying reports on what it tastes like andtheir experience.
Scott Bentley: Yes, absolutely
Jools Walker: Is there anything the, perhaps we can do, like over here in the UKthat can help the civet carts? And put an end to the cruelty that they sufferedto produce this coffee?
Janice Girardi: Most people don't realize how cruel it is. So I think awareness andhaving a conscience in a heart and being willing to do the right thing andeducate as many people as you can.
Scott Bentley: Janice, thank you so, so much for your time!
Janice Girardi: Thank you
Jools Walker: Absolutely, yeah, thank you. It's, it's been an education, Janice,and you know, I'm now completely reevaluate my coffee choices.
Janice Girardi:  Yeah. I'm thinkingchampagne, or you know, truffles, some kind of truffles or something that'srare.
Jools Walker: Not the kopi Luwak?
JaniceGirardi:  Notthe kopi Luwak! But thank you very, very much for interviewing me on thesubject and for talking to us, and I'm sure it will help, and we just reallyappreciate.
Scott Bentley: Oh it was an absolute pleasure Janice,  thank you for your time
JaniceGirardi:  Thankyou. Okay. Bye bye.
Scott Bentley: Okay, Jools. So you got a presence of buy and you're at 75 poundsburning a hole in your pocket. What did you decide to buy?
Jools Walker: Neither one of them is what after all that, after that emotionalroller coaster with, with the coffee, I did still go for a geisha though, soit's still kind of on brand. Scott Bentley: And where did you get that from?
Jools Walker: It was from a roaster called Kiss the Hippo. I really liked the nameof it and it was actually one of Rachel's coffees, a Panama Hacienda, LaEsmerelda, and it was only 30 pounds for 150 grams of it as well. So it's stillkind of pricey, but not as pricey as 75 quid.
Scott Bentley: Now they're really good roaster actually. Um, so you chose well.
Jools Walker: Um, and you know, after that conversation with, with Rachel, wherewe were talking about the notes and the flavors and everything, it, itgenuinely was like spraying a very expensive bottle of perfume in, in the room.It was just absolutely stellar and. Ian’s reaction to, it was just, he lovedit. Absolutely lucky.
Scott Bentley: Ok, Jools yup. I'm nomaths genius, but I work out that's 45 quid left. What did you do? The rest ofit?
Jools Walker: Oh, it's, it's super predictable, but I ended up buying cyclingstuff for Ian
Scott Bentley: Obs
Jools Walker: But you know, there's stillpart of me that was quite curious as to what the kopi Luwak coffee tasted like,but, you know, after everything that I learned about it, it's it's a no-no inregards to trying it.
Scott Bentley: Yeah, I don't think you're missing out on an awful lot to be frank.I've spoken to many people within the coffee industry who over the years havehad stories about tasting this, and essentially they're always veryunderwhelmed. Um, I think there are many, many amazing specialty coffees atvery, very reasonable prices, which would outgun this coffee, on everyoccasion, you know, I just don't think you're missing out on anything here.
Jools Walker: So it's, it's true. You don't have to experience everything in life.
Scott Bentley: Let's run the credits Jools
Jools Walker: Okay.
Scott Bentley: This podcast was produced by James Harper, the creator of the coffeepodcast, Filter Stories
Jools Walker: And he also writes and performs the piano music.Now, if you want more information on whatwe've discussed today, we've put links to Hacienda La Esmerelda and the Bali AnimalWelfare Association in the show notes.
Scott Bentley: And if you liked the show, please subscribe on your podcast app and you can also help others find the show by leaving a review on Apple podcasts,or Castbox
Jools Walker: You can also follow us on social media as well, so you can findcaffeine magazine on Instagram @Caffeinemag, Jools, myself  @ladyvelo and James Harper, our wonderfulproducer @filterstoriespodcasts
Scott Bentley: And tell us on social media, what is the most expensive coffeeyou've ever bought? Um, you know, if there's anything else you'd like us tolook into or investigate
Jools Walker: Now in our next episode, we'll be exploring the environmental impactof your coffee.
Tim Ridley: Yeah, correct.There's like 250 grams of like carbon floating around the atmosphere from whenyou drink coffee. Like it's just, it's it's incredible.
Scott Bentley: In fact, we're asking what's better for the environment and oatlatte in a disposable cup or a regular latte in a reusable cup. And you may besurprised
Toby Weedon: For every 100 calories that you put into an animal, you only getabout 17 useful calories out.
Jools Walker: You can find more episodes of the show, wherever you get your podcasts.Thanks so much for listening and we'll speak to you next time.